Solutions Driven

“There are no completely safe spaces” – Designing a D&I friendly user journey with Stella Bailleux 

What do you get when you cross a UX/UI designer with a human resources expert and DE&I activist?  

A pretty solid candidate user journey… 

This episode’s guest on The Talent Intelligence Podcast is the ever-talented Stella Bailleux, change practitioner, IT recruiter, and UX Designer.  

Stella is currently working at Upday, a rapidly growing technology and media company that strives to contribute to a better-informed and more trustworthy world. She is also setting up her own free HR consultancy for businesses, dedicated to helping companies like make a positive impact and create a safer space for everyone. 

Although Stella was hired as a technical recruiter at Upday, they are currently navigating a hiring freeze and her role has pivoted to improve employee retention – something that many businesses are going through.  

In this episode, Stella sits down with host Claire Murray to discuss:  

  • Why KPIs are useless if you’re not comparing job titles and genders, like for like  
  • Why company structure’s for women need to be rectangular, rather than triangular  
  • How to negate the effects of nepotism in a business  
  • The best ways to automate the recruitment process for diverse employees  
  • How to react when an underperforming employee wants promoted  
  • Stella’s top tips for promoting diversity in a hiring process  
  • And much more…  

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Claire Murray: So hello and welcome to episode. 28 of the talent Intelligence podcast today. We’re joined by Stella Bailleux, DE&I practitioner technical recruiter, ux designer a Berlin Pride Board member like I could go on and on and on. Your resume is pretty impressive. So, I am delighted to have you on the podcast today. How are you.

Stella Bailleux: hey? Thank you for this invitation. I’m really happy to be here. Yeah, everything is going well and looking forward to the exchange.

Claire Murray: Wonderful! So, Stella, you’re currently a technical recruiter at Upday, and I did a little bit research before I came on, and Upday describes itself as a fast moving tech and media company with the vision. You can tell. I’m reading this off of my second screen, that you, with the vision to contribute to a better informed and more trustworthy world. So just to kick things off. I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about yourself, how you got into ux design, how you got into design for recruiting and just how you ended up working at Upday.

Stella Bailleux: So basically, I’ve been working in human resources all my life. I mean, I also have a master’s in human resources, I’d say like in the last couple of years I also started to get into activism which also explains why in my work I took a turn really focus on diversity and inclusivity. So actually, right now, I am not a technical recruiter anymore. I mean, No, no, that’s fine. I was the first 6 months of my contract, but no, because of the economical situation. We have a hiring freeze, so I had to kind of like shift to another project, which is amazing because it’s like creating a performance review, creating a compensation structure with levels and competencies for each career path.

So the goal is not to hire but it’s to retain people because we did an NPS survey, we always do one in March and the result was actually worse than last year, and most of the detractors expressed that they want to a salary increase. You know it’s that they want transparency about their career path. So it’s actually amazing that we’re already working on this project, which is gonna answer to the specific pain point.

But to come back to your first question. I did a UX bootcamp last year, because for me it’s really important to have an impact you know, and to create a safe space for everyone. There are so many, identities and intersections. Right now I’m trying to really focus my work on people with disability or neurodiverse people because I think they are often forgotten from this gender, race, and sexuality.

Stella Bailleux: And yeah, and also well, big news from the first of June my contract ends actually and we’re gonna launch our diversity and Inclusivity Agency, with consulting. And it’s called Audacity. So we give free mentoring to people from marginalized communities on how to negotiate this salary for people working in HR departments, how to handle some very difficult situations, either with management or employees. So we do this for free. But in the future, we’re gonna offer services and cooperation on how to create an inclusive space. But also to create an inclusive space for business excellence. I think it’s definitely relevant.

Claire Murray: Yeah, of course it’s funny, at Solutions Driven, we have a Chief Diversity Officer, Salma and the way the way that she came to work with us was that she was like a freelancer and had her own business, and she knew our CEO ended up coming in just to do a bit of like consultancy, because we kind of realized we were falling quite far behind on diversity. And then she came in and ended up working here. And it’s it’s the same idea like how to make the business more inclusive, but also just how to make all of our processes more inclusive as well. Obviously, we’re not a tech company, but we’re quite process driven.

So yeah, it sounds like there’s a lot of similarities there.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think you know, like one thing which is important when it comes to diversity and inclusivity is to acknowledge that we all full of bullshit, you know. There is no company what you can say, we don’t have racism like this is not true, because I think the first step is to acknowledge that a lot of things like sexism and racism, homophobia. It’s all structural and institutional.

And once you acknowledge things and it’s easier to say like, okay, what can we do to improve our processes? What can we do? But I think a lot of companies at the moment in general are in denial like it doesn’t want to acknowledge.

And I think this is definitely the first step, because that’s also something I say a lot in activism like safe space doesn’t exist like it will never be 100% safe, you know, because, for example you and I, we have a different definition of what it means to be in a safe space. And it’s really based, not only on your identity, but also on your experience, because, maybe you went through negative or traumatic experience. Maybe we don’t share the same values and so on right?

Stella Bailleux: So I think that’s why it’s super important to always listen to feedback, and I think it’s really like a process. You know that when you build a new feature, or when you create a new process. You should always base this new process or feature on research and doing surveys, quantative surveys.

We started to do an employee well, being survey every month, and it really allow us to so to see, for example, because we have editorial offices in various countries and Spain is one of them.

But we are never really in touch right? So like a bit outside of the organisation. If that makes sense, because the main offices in Berlin and for the employee wellbeing survey, we realized that Spain has the lowest score, and it was really surprising, you know, because sometimes you talk to the people of Spain and the like, really nice and friendly, you would never know that team Spain is not feeling it. And then in the employee wellbeing survey they can comment and they can say, actually I don’t like this or what they did like. And this kind of survey is really nice. The feedback they give is not always actionable

But based on the feedback, as HR or people in culture, it is our duty to come up with an actionable plan, right? And say, okay for Spain, specifically like the pain point is very specific, because, yes you can have global processes, but you need to localise this strategy. Because in some countries, if everyone is white I’m not sure doing a workshop on racism is the best thing to do at the moment.

Of course everyone should receive one but if there is a team and there is one or two POC and they don’t feel safe this is where I would start.

Claire Murray: But yeah, that’s interesting. We have a team, most of our teams based in the Uk. We have people in Europe like and and across the world, but we also have a quite a big team in the Philippines, and

Claire Murray: as a result of our NPs survey last year, like we realized that the Philippine culture is so different to our culture here, and just how they I think we knew that already, but it really highlighted things, and in the last year we’ve had to spend quite a bit of time just making sure that if we’re doing company, events like it’s something that they are actually interested in, or that in their culture they would do as well. So it was taken that like quantitative data, rather than just like a kind of gut feel about how people are. It’s so important. So

Stella Bailleux: Okay, now, now, I think that’s good that you mentioned it. I mean, I had a lot of experience like implementing your process like globally, you know, to kind of create a global process for everyone when it’s not unified. I mean generally let’s be honest, like the intention from the management is to save money. But there is always a money factor behind, of course.

But I think it’s very interesting, you know, because a lot of people would create a global process which is very like Eurocentric, white centric. I mean, you know, like basically based on this like privilege thing.

The process is already biased in a way. In other words, I would say, most of the process create for these focus on men. And this is kind of the issue. For example, right now we are opening, expanding into the US. And I think a lot of people will be like oh, we already speak English here and it’s going to be easy. But I think it’s actually very complicated. Because cultrally what people expect from the workplace is different in the US.

Stella Bailleux: I mean within the group where we have right now. Some companies already tried to hop into the US. And sometimes it was a complete fail, you know, and I think that some things that should not be underestimated. But yeah, definitely like, I think it doesn’t matter as a country. They have so many factors like social cultural. Sometimes, it could be about religion also or politics.

Stella Bailleux: So yes like working with different cultures and different countries, is actually very hard, and it can cost a lot of money. This is always an issue, because then it’s gonna create turnover. But I think the main issue today is that people face is they are able to hire diverse, but they’re not able to retin because if you look at movement for women or colour, you would say that most of the women stay in level 1 or level 2 when the more you go to executives, there are more men.

And you have all the other criteria, age, if you have kids or not for example, that would be super interesting. But we already know the answer you know. And I think data is everything. I think that could be used to highlight some trends and some bias.

Claire Murray: of course. And you spoke earlier on about. Obviously, everyone’s trying to save money and it comes down to costs – noone is quite sure if we’re in a recession or not but we’re definitely in a downturn.

So in the face of a downturn, how do we make sure that DE&I is at the forefront and stop that being pushed backwards when budgets get cut and it’s maybe not the most important thing on the agenda.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, and to be honest with you, I feel it’s not really a management concern. I mean, we have to be honest on this is that I think it’s people in culture like diversity and inclusivity. You kind of in the middle right? Because let’s say on one side, you have some management, and I think they are very money driven. I mean to be honest. I have never really met any executive leader or C-level people who really care about this topic. But I think if you’re doing this job, at least it’s important to promote diversity and therefore you’re kind of in the middle Sometime you need to convince the leaders that your strategy, it’s about diversity but also that it makes sense at a financial level.

Stella Bailleux: I mean, if I can give you an example – you could be like, oh, there is 20% turn over, and they’d be like we don’t care about the turnover like there is turnover everywhere. But if you tell them that 20% total, here is 3 million euros a year. Okay. So then when you hook them up – because you need to speak the language. I think it’s something which is really important in change management. So it doesn’t matter what new things you want to implement, you need to convince the sponsor.

Your sponsor is a key to your prospective success. So your sponsor will generally be a C-level of executive and you need to make it clear, like what is the contract meaning?

They just need a bit of communications. Maybe we send an email to the whole company.

Stella Bailleux: and your sponsor is a key to your prospect success. So you sponsor generally will be a sea level or executive, and you need to make them clear, like, what is the contract

When it comes to the management it is impactful, because it will explain why we’re going that direction.

Stella Bailleux: So to give you a precise example, because I think it’s a little bit abstract at the moment.

Stella Bailleux: Right now, we’re saying like we have this percentage of turnover, and it’s costing this money. What can we do to retain those people? And actually, I don’t even need to say that I want to retain a movement, and so on. Because management don’t care, you know. Unfortunately, like this is a reality.

Stella Bailleux: I say, like, okay, let’s create a performance review where you’re gonna raise on one side like the individual goals, then raise the fee according to the value. So it’s not only how good a performer you are, it’s how good a colleague you are. So for the value, we have ownership which means holding your mistakes, better done than perfect, it’s ok to make mistakes. But you need to see every mistake as an opportunity to learn and so on. The idea is to connect this performance review to a career path and this is how you retain talent.

Stella Bailleux: But in my head it’s more specific. This is how we retain all the women and LGBTQ and people of color will leave the organization because it didn’t have it.

Stella Bailleux: I think sometimes you don’t need to bring diversity in every conversation with every stakeholders. But this is my goal on a personal level to like retain those people

Claire Murray: right it doesn’t need to be the C suite’s focus, but there needs to be someone there whose focus is to take that away from the C suite, which is you by the sound of things.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, basically, I think it really did. I mean, basically like it’s you have a project in that cases like performance, review, and compensation. When you go to C-level you don’t say it’s for diversity. You say, like we’re losing money. We need to retain people. Super general. It’s working pretty well. And thats what I would recommend. And I think it’s good because the final goals will be rich. You will be reach your financial goals you need to reach because the company is closing otherwise.

Stella Bailleux: But then, on the other side, it’s sending a strong signal to all those people who, uncertain, they get to the NPS survey, they’re like, oh I said I wanted a raise. And the whole company is doing this for the first time in seven years. It’s a strong signal that finally something is happening finally, a true structure.

Stella Bailleux: you have me put to them

so genuinely. What happened is like you will have cis man, this white man, specifically. We are gonna go to C-level and say, hey, I want a 15 k payrise. No performance because it isn’t tracked, there’s nothing to justify it. Sometimes there’s no change, no new responsibilities, no change in job title.

Stella Bailleux: and I think this is where the issue is, because

Stella Bailleux: I think there is a culture in a lot of company where they expect to people to ask for a raise, and then they will be like, Well, we don’t promote women because they never move forward or ask.

Stella Bailleux: But for my experience. This is not true, because in a many companies I notice that some women are asking for salary raise. They can prove that they have the performance like they can prove everything that they can say. This is my return on investment, and it’s still a no.

Stella Bailleux: But on the other side, because of friends of friends. And there is no performance and sometimes you have crazy salary increases which are approved by C-level and finance.

Stella Bailleux: And this is exactly what we want to stop with this kind of process like performance for you.

Stella Bailleux: This is also very important to retain those talent because you’re sending them a strong signal and say, we know it happened in the past but that’s not gonna happen anymore. So basically if you’re bringing value to the company, you will be rewarded regardless of your identity.

Claire Murray: Yeah, like men go and play golf together or go for drinks after work, and they’re more likely to have access to the C-suite. But when a women asks for the same thing, they’re seen as pushy and demanding and then you wonder why there’s a gender pay gap and it starts with this.

Stella Bailleux: Actually, there is one more thing that we want to implement with this performance with you, because what’s happening is like. Let’s say you are the manager right, and you will rate your performance.

Stella Bailleux: Those who like deserve to be promoted, and if it’s like, how much so, then it will be like, I don’t know 5, 10% of your salary, and so on. The thing is, there is still a bias, because maybe your manager doesn’t like you or maybe you’re the only women in the team they’re going to rate you lower.

Stella Bailleux: Once he makes a proposal in the system, it goes to a short, so, then the idea is to build a committee. The committee there should be a CFO, a member of the HR team if possible.

Stella Bailleux: and this how it works is on one side finance have to agree. What is the budget? Because for each department there is a budget. So that’s one thing. For HR it’s more like ok let’s look at the performance because I notice this person is underperforming. And then you can look at the team and say “this person is not doing shit.

And then you be like I don’t understand why they give 10% to this man and they give 5% to you, what is this?

Representative is to pay attention to all the layers of interaction like intersectionality.

Because maybe you have kids. Maybe you are not white, maybe you’re LGBTQ. Those are things you can’t write in the system but I think that’s what you should take into account when reviewing the salary.

Stella Bailleux: This is why it is super important to have a committee and the committee I mean, I’m not a fan of binary, but I think it’s good to have like 50% man, 50% woman in this committee, and then to make this decision collectively. Do we agree with the manager proposal?

Or should we make a suggestion for a bit less. And I think this is how we can try to correct the bias from the manager and try to move forward with fairness. That’s the main call of course.

Claire Murray:We spoke there about KPIs and when I checked your LinkedIn Profile, you had quite a lot of figures on there, money you’d saved and things you had improved while working.

Obviously you say you don’t really present this to the C-suite. But do you keep your own data on Diversity and inclusion in companies, and do you have your own KPIs you keep in your role?

Stella Bailleux: So, to be honest, because I started like less than a year ago, like we don’t have like proper KPIs, but I’m working on it. So this is the next step in the project. I already calculated the un-adjusted gender pay gap.

Stella Bailleux: let’s say in the tech department, you take the salary of all the man, and then you take the salary of all the men like, regardless of position and level of Senior. And then you say, okay, in tech women are her paid 25% less than man, right? So this is like the unadjusted gender salary gap. But the aim is to adjust it. So I did. You can use a lot of criteria but as I mentioned before in Germany you can’t use race or sexuality for example. But it would be interesting to do it. But what you can use is age and the level. It’s giving you an idea to say women are earning 25% less than men in tech. It’s interesting to see for the same level and responsibility, what is a trend? Then it’s easier to interpret. One of the main struggles is there’s no consistency when it comes to the job title.

Stella Bailleux: And actually there is no current path. So if you ask me right now to give you this KPI, I cannot give it to you, because first of all we need to clean the mess, and this is exactly what we’re doing right now. We’re going to. So, for example, we have journalists in every country, but they have different titles. We’re making it, regardless of the country, a single title which will be Editor, junior team member, senior team lead. And we can also give different levels. We keep the levels consistent, but once you have this, you can assign people to the level they should be and then analyse this.

Stella Bailleux: and then you can be like, okay. There are many women in junior positions. But how many women across the organisation have been promoted to mid-level and compare that same number with men.

How many men have been promoted from junior to senior, and then you can do it specifically per position or per department. But this was really this will really show you a trend which is always the same generally like it’s a pyramid.

You go to Executive like the less women are promoted, and I mean, even right now, when I look at the number. We have so many women as working students. But when you get to executive it’s a contrary. So it’s the idea to not do a pyramid, but more rectangles so it’s equal like man, and like women.

Claire Murray: I’m in the middle of doing like my like business review for this month just now, right? And we track like how many leads come in, and how many of those convert to like actual opportunities. Right? So you’re kind of doing opportunity to conversion rates between how many you convert to a mid-level then convert to the top level. That’s interesting.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, yeah, definitely. But that’s why I’m saying that is everything. But sometimes you cannot exploit the data, and I think this is a first step to look at the flows of the system because you can’t understand that if everybody has a different job title and there is no clear level, no idea what a level means. And this is what’s gonna happen with the performance review to give you an example.

Stella Bailleux: Let’s say you have a senior back end, right? And you have this man earning 70k and a women earning 60k. So they will both be in the same compensation bad for senior backend.

The woman will be at the minimum of the composition then, and the man will be at the top, because the thing is which happen in the organization. Sometimes you have people who are senior and better paid.

But actually they don’t bring any return on investment, that was the salary. And then they want a higher salary. And then that’s how you end up with this situation. So you look at the level and competencies and say – okay you want to be promoted. But you’re already at the maximum of the compensation for senior so the next step will be team lead.

And then you tell them. First of all, lets look at the competencies that you need to bring for team lead. Let’s look at the competencies that you should fulfill for senior. I’m really sorry but when it comes to prioritisation there is a room of improvement, and for the salary that we pay you, which is the maximum of the compensation then you’re not fulfilling your duties.

There is kind of this strategy to use this structure and what it means for each competencies. You’re not working well or you’re not doing this. You’re not able to have a conflict. This decided according to your value. You are a top performer but actually when you make a mistake you blame other people.

That’s not what we want here in the company. I

You can use this to gatekeep people who don’t deserve the promotion because some people will be like, yeah, you know, I’m just gonna leave.

And I say, sure you can leave.

Stella Bailleux: I think that’s what happened generally. Say you’re not someone that we’re desperate to keep. So you can leave. A lot of companies get themselves into this situation so and that they like when they’re small.

Claire Murray: Obviously, like you start off with 20-30 people, and people get job titles just based on, because they are the only person doing that, and then you add another person in, and they get a different job. And then companies get to a certain size and they don’t have any structure for job titles, for promotions, for pay rises and people are just paid based on what they want when they take the job.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, I mean, from my experience, I think like this is a problem from startup. A lot of people are there from the beginning and when it’s been like 5/6/7 years and there’s no processes so people have just been doing what they want.

Stella Bailleux: And then at 1 point you start to bring structure. Leadership says e need to do like this, and existed like this, not only to be structure, but to be like legally compliance also sometime, and I think it’s a hot shock for a lot of people, because they feel like you’re taking privileges from them.

In a way, you know that they had some privileges which actually were not supposed to be there in the first place.

Stella Bailleux: But yes, that’s why, like this kind of project with performance review conversation, structure is really important, not only to be fair, you know, but it’s also, if you want to survive as a company, if you want to scale up, this is a thing like if you want to scale, you can’t be in this mess when there is no consistency that you have a career path. So actually, it’s really good timing that we already had a career path for journalists in the US that will be consistent with the organisation.

Claire Murray: I know for some people we’ll be like, yeah, Why do we need to career path? But I think it’s actually really useful, because it’s such a positive tool to help the manager. A lot of managers are not trained to be people managers. They’ve been promoted to the position of team leader, not because it good leaders

Stella Bailleux: Exactly, and that’s the thing. Most of them they never receive leadership trainings, and ever received training on how to do one to ones, on how to give feedback, how to do performance, review, how to create goals, because it. And I’m like “How? How come you don’t have goals? Are we living in the same planet?

Stella Bailleux: This kind of project is really important, because you give them all the tools. And so you just need to use the tools, and it’s actually very simple, like. What is the competency? What can you improve? You give them structure. You give them like easy process to follow. And yeah, I think it’s a learning from everyone also for us, you know. And I think this is a most exciting part of this project.

Claire Murray: Cool: yeah, it sounds like you’ve done a lot so far you’ve put a lot into it so well done. You know. I am quite conscious that we have been chatting for about 45 min now.

I don’t want to keep too much of your time, so I always like to have a little bit in these podcasts just a little bit of Insight that people can take away with them when they listen, so that they’re not just listening to people talking. So I guess from your point of view, right? And all the learning that you’ve taken from recruitment, UX. All the different things.

Claire Murray: What are the top 3 ways that you think that businesses can make their recruiting process as diverse as possible.

Stella Bailleux: Hmm. I would say number one is to make your recruiting process inclusive and when I say a reporting process it starts from your website, because a lot of people with disability or neuro diverse people like they will not apply, because your website, for example, is not accessible, or because you advertising on the street is also not accessible, you know, for people with visual impairment, for example. I think it should be mandatory for every company to offer accommodation to people with disability, because sometimes the recording process is like a video interview or technical assignment. And you know, some people like, for example, autistic people like they prefer to receive the question in advance. So there are a lot of things that you can do which basically cost €0. But actually, we’ll bring you the best talent.

Stella Bailleux: I have ADHD. And I think to have people with disability or neuro diversity people in your team is actually a strength, because they see patterns that also people don’t.

Stella Bailleux: But yeah, I would say, the first thing is to have a inclusive recruiting process and that sense

Stella Bailleux: So second thing I would say is anti bias. I am super biased, you know, like everyone is. But I think this is the first step to recognize that you have preferences, though you know any kind of bias

Stella Bailleux: Therefore it’s important to train everyone in a company like a hiring manager.

Stella Bailleux: I’m very interesting at the topic, and I read a lot, and I try to reflect on my on bias what I can recommend as a processes to use brick. It’s a creative skill test where you can do a fit according to the values but you can also add a specific according to the position.

So, for example, for back end will be attention to detail, for design will be abstract reasoning.

Stella Bailleux: Because this specific position you will have a percentage of fits, and then the system will generate question automatically for the manager to ask. So they and the manager receive interview lines on the weaknesses. So I’ll ask a qustion like how do you collaborate in a team and they need to write an answer in the system.

Stella Bailleux: So last thing automat to is as much as possible, and on one on one side you can save cost. But you can also make the applicant experience as smooth as possible.

One example is just use calendly for everything.

What I do is like when people apply, I used to do an internal call for the intro call – very basic. But first of all, it’s a pain in the ass because I need to write everything. And sometimes I will write my own interpretation. I will make mistakes somethimes because of a different accent, not understanding everything because English isn’t my first language.

So what I do is I send an email saying thank you for applying, we have you profile. Here’s a company presentation and then I record myself with the presentation, here are our benefits, here are our company values. We present everything in a video.

I don’t want to waste anybody’s time. If you’re still interested in working for us after watching the video. Amazing, please fill the form. But if you don’t, then you don’t need to.

Stella Bailleux: I’m not saying like, hey, let’s schedule an intro call for the minutes during your week, because maybe you’re too busy and have something else to do, and you want to do it in the evening. You want to take the time to write a nice answer, because, you know, sometimes it’s a little bit stressful. Sometimes you do not prepare, so I send them to the form, and then they can be like, okay, You know, this is what I need.

Stella Bailleux: 3 things that are important for me to team 3 things which makes a good leader.

Stella Bailleux: Sometimes you can ask questions specific to the field of expertise, like, what is the main challenge when maintaining an API, for example, for back end right? And then they can write a lot of things like please be detailed as possible, because I’m not the only one reviewing the feedback. The hiring manager will also reuse a technical answer.

And based on the answer to this question, which is very detailed and very clean and structure, because it’s not me typing, you know.

Stella Bailleux: There are many ways you can automate the process to also make it more inclusive. But it was my first point. So yeah, as I mentioned before 3 things are inclusivity, anti-bias strategy and the last one is automation for better efficiency.

Stella Bailleux: It’s also for us in terms of workload like you actually don’t need so many people to do the job. he idea is to automate to as many administrative tasks operation no as possible. I mean, I also work with AI, like ChatGPT or other platforms. But it’s definitely something people should investigate.

Stella Bailleux: But it is a program by cis straight man. So I think it’s good to stay aware that what is produced by each other, for example, can be extremely biased in some way.

Stella Bailleux: What you can do is to fit into it with your own input. So, for example, like if you read a few articles written by a woman of color, you just could by-pass everything. And you say, please learn this, and then, based on what they learn from. Then you can ask it for an answer. This is a strategy on how to get better results. For example, for inclusivity you could go to ChatGPT and be like “Hey, give me 10 action points on how to make my recruiting process more inclusive. And you will get input from there.

Claire Murray: Yeah, I’m. I’m always like, hey, tell me how to do x, or give me ideas on Y, like half my life is on Chat gpt just now.

So final thing, and then we can. We can wrap up.

Claire Murray: I’m going to do your top 3 again. What are the top 3 pieces of advice you would give to your younger self if you were just starting out in your career today.

Stella Bailleux: That’s a very good question. First of all, I would say, don’t be afraid to do mistakes.

Stella Bailleux: Just go for it. It’s never failure. It’s always an opportunity. I think that would be my first thing.

Stella Bailleux: The second thing is shared knowledge all the time. I think there is a misconception about that. For example, you’re gonna steal my idea right? And I’m like no, I don’t care, because the more we shares, the more we learn from each other, as strong as the networks, as strong as a community. And this is where we can really have an impact. So I would definitely like, share. Yeah, share knowledge.

Stella Bailleux: The last one, I would say is. Yeah, it’s kind of similar. But I think community is everything. It is really important to build community, and especially when it comes to activism. You know, like woman. Lgbtq. And I think this is something that missing, because capitalism is built in a ways that it makes you be like super individualistic and also like within the organization. And I think this actually terrible.

I think it’s happening a lot. And I think this to change. I know that people need to understand that we need to focus on the good and how we can team up together to have an impact and community is everything. It’s like your mental health support. This is something that should not be underestimated, and can bring you very, very far to be a whole community. Yeah, it’s really important.

Claire Murray: Yeah, woman helping woman is very, very important, because I think you’re right. I think women quite often just stand on each other to get to the top of the pile. And actually, if you, if you work, work together like

Claire Murray: I mean here at Solutions Driven right, we have all the women in our team. We all do quite different jobs. So there’s not there’s not really all women in our leadership team. We all do quite different jobs. There’s not really that competition, but actually it’s probably the most like community feel I’ve had. We all work so well together. I’ve been in places in the past where it’s been such a kind of bitchy feel, and nobody wins when you all fight against each other so totally agree with your third point. I agree with all your points. But I very much. I identify with your third point quite a lot.

Stella Bailleux: yeah, I mean, I would say just one thing. As you mentioned, I think for me it’s really important doesn’t matter if it’s a like a community or company, to create a surface space where you can talk freely about mental health, and I think it’s really important to feel safe. And I to go to the office? I’d be like, you know what I’m having a really bad day like I don’t feel like talking. Oh, you know I would prefer stay home, because right now I’m really struggling with I don’t know the kids or my husband, or you know whatever situation I think it’s really cool to have co-worker, who will not judge you, and we’ll make the space to listen to you. You know, because

Stella Bailleux: I think like this is not true that you can perform to your best every day sometime. You also need to put yourself first, and I think if the company or the people surrounded you are making the space. I think this is definitely super important, because it’s not always about your keep your eyes. You also a person, and you also have like emotional release.

Stella Bailleux: I think giving you this will make you a better performer at the end, you know. So we put the company first, but I think most of the times those needs are excluded, so people feel not listened to. And then you know it kind of escalates. It creates a lot of restoration, a lot of resistance. And this is not what we want right?

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, I think at the end you know, it’s also on an individual level. I think everybody can be an activist. I I think you don’t need to go to demonstration or do big things. Activism is in the daily little things. For example, at your workplace, if you’re like, hey? You know what I’m just gonna take 15 min to have a coffee with this co-worker, because I see they’re not feeling well, and I’m going to create a space for them. It’s already some kind of activism, you know, because you are building community for this person, and I think this is a beautiful thing about it. So all of us we can have an impact doesn’t matter how small it is. If you pop up also small impact together. Then you know, it’s it’s really powerful, and I think like yes, it’s. I think it’s good to have this approach to be like. Maybe you don’t have capacity. You don’t have time, but you always have time for 15 min. Coffee, you know, and this is already good. I think

Claire Murray: 100%.

Claire Murray: Thank you so much for coming on today, Stella. This has been like really insightful. I’ve loved your I love your advice at the end. There it’s been great.

Claire Murray: Thank you again. Thank you.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah. I mean, you can reach out to us on Audacity. We’re building also community. Send me a I don’t know website, link or social media like, wherever you have, I have a website. I build everything, the website. It builds a new letter. Yeah, yeah, I mean

Claire Murray: I can imagine if you send me that to i’ll pop it in the show notes. So anybody who’s listening can access. And best of luck with that, because it sounds like it’s a really exciting new venture. You’ve got

Stella Bailleux: cool. Yeah, Thank you so much for the interview. I really had the best time was really nice talking to you. And yeah, I hope to stay in touch in the future. And you’re also more than welcome to join the Webinars that we’re gonna organize on the Friday of March.

Claire Murray: Sounds good, and I’m sure that some people in our audience would find that really useful as well pop it in the show notes. Great. Okay? Well, listen. I will let you go. Thank you very much. Have a great day, and i’m sure we’ll be seeing loads of things from you soon.

Stella Bailleux: Yeah, thank you so much. Have a nice day, Bye, bye.

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